3520/A whose EIN do I need?

gpancio · Post by **gpancio** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:50 am

Long story short, I need to file 3520/A dating back to 2009 for RESP and TFSA. Back then, these forms required an EIN.

But I don't know who to contact to get one.
For example, my accounts were at Bank of Montreal. The "Trustee" of these accounts is "BMO Trust Company".

Would it be the "BMO Trust Company" that I contact to see if they have an EIN?
And if they don't, I guess I apply for one as the "owner" of the foreign trust?

gpancio · Post by **gpancio** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:09 am

As a follow up to this, I have been calling various BMO Trust Company- related phone numbers and nobody knows what I am talking about.

So to me it seems that I need to request the EIN on behalf of them, using the SS-4.

sunnysga · Post by **sunnysga** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:31 am

An EIN # comes from the IRS.
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Bus ... IN)-Online
You don't need the form to do it - just call them.

gpancio · Post by **gpancio** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:35 am

Right, sorry I should have written more clearly.
There are cases in this forum in which people have been able to contact the trust or the brokerage or whatever and find that they are a "Qualified Intermediary" and have their own EIN already.

That's what I meant- how would I get in touch w/ BMO or BMO Trust and find out if this is the case with them?

But I tried, and they don't know.

So yes, I believe I need to call and get the EIN, and use that on the 3520 and 3520A.

Thank you.

sunnysga · Post by **sunnysga** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:53 pm

I wouldn't worry about BMO if they don't know what you are talking about. I had the same thing when I was doing mine (but with other investment companies) and I was so confused and frustrated. Hired an IRS enrolled agent to complete my 3520/A and now just follow the format each year. From what I understand though, is even when hiring a professional to complete it, some interpret the instructions differently. To this day, with so much confusion and lack of support from IRS to help with forms, I don't believe there is any one correct way. (Or perhaps I am just getting cynical!) All I know is that the IRS accepted my backfiling with no problem, so I guess what I gave them must have been good enough.

Re:Name of U.S. person(s) with respect to whom this Form 3520 is being filed - I put my own info.
Re: Name of foreign trust (if applicable) - I made up the name for the trust (ie. BMO RESP Tr) and registered that name when I applied to IRS for the EIN. I used my own address info (in your case - not BMO's address)
Re: appoint US agent - answered "no"

I am the trust creator. I am the trust owner.

Again, this is just what I did. I am no expert. But I have been using this format for about 5 years with no problem.

You will need to complete 3520A to attach to 3520. Don't expect BMO to send it because they likely no nothing about it, if they are scratching their heads when you call them.

Does this help you?

gpancio · Post by **gpancio** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:11 pm

Yes that does help me, Thank you very much.

How did you hire an "IRS enrolled agent" to fill out the 3520?

I'm having trouble learning how to fill out the 3520/A. That's probably a topic to take to another, or new, thread though. (I have a few threads going)

sunnysga · Post by **sunnysga** » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:15 pm

Hired a cross border tax accountant (in their descriptions of skills - they will sometimes say that they are an "IRS enrolled agent".) Did a search on the internet to find a company to help me when I was first discovering that I had expat filings to do.

gpancio · Post by **gpancio** » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:47 am

I called to get an EIN (and got one) but there was some confusion over who is who.
There are 3 specific lines:

1. Legal Name of Entity (or individual) for whom the EIN is being requested.
3. Executor, administrator, trustee, "care of"
7a. Name of responsible party.

This was for a TFSA at BMO

I was pretty sure that
3. is the trustee, ie BMO Trust Company
7a. Me

but for 1, is it me or BMO?

ChromiumDioxide · Post by **ChromiumDioxide** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:30 pm

Hello gpancio,

Did you find out the definitive answers for parts 1), 3) and 7a?

gpancio · Post by **gpancio** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:40 pm

I would not say definitive, but one agent was helpful and I did this:
1. Make something up. I did something along the lines of "bank of Montreal tfsa acct no".
3. Bmo
7a. Me

ChromiumDioxide · Post by **ChromiumDioxide** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:01 pm

Thanks very much for the reply.

I'm just looking at the form right now and realized I don't know the answers to almost all the other parts (such as is it for an LLC, reason for applying, principle activity of the business, principle line of merchandise sold, 3rd party designee, plus the online application has a part that's not on the physical SS-4 form such as trust sub-type https://sa.www4.irs.gov/modiein/individ ... t-type.jsp).

So I think I might hire an accountant to apply for the EIN and fill in the 3520 otherwise I'm worried I'll make a mistake.

ChromiumDioxide · Post by **ChromiumDioxide** » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:57 pm

Wow accountants are quoting a few hundred dollars per EIN, just for filing a one page form. As I need one each for myself and my wife's TFSA I thought I'd try and save a several hundred dollars and have a stab at it.

Do you ming me asking if you can recollect how you filled in these parts of the form:

9a) Type of entity.
I'm guessing tis Sole proprietor or Trust. (If its Trust the TIN of the grantor is additionally required, who is the grantor in that case).

10) Reason for applying.
My guess is "Created a trust". If so then the type of trust needs to be specified, what types are there?

16) Principal activity of your business
Finance & insurance?

Many thanks in advance if you are able to assist

birder · Post by **birder** » Fri May 15, 2015 12:43 am

Long time since the O.P. asked, but for the record: IRS won't let you use the website to request an EIN from abroad. There is a non-tollfree telephone number you can call to get your EIN over the phone. They advise gathering all the info needed to complete the SS-4 form before calling. The notes imply they *might* ask you to fax or mail in the form afterward, and you should sign it and retain it for your records.
As for what 'type of business' to check for a (foreign) trust, the instructions say to check "other" and fill in something suitable, such as "created a trust fund" (I'm putting 'created a trust account')
I'm planning to phone tomorrow - will follow up if anything unusual comes up by phone.

birder · Post by **birder** » Fri May 15, 2015 12:52 am

Oh, and for the other questions:
9a Type of Entity - you check "trust"; you as TFSA or RESP owner are the 'grantor' (the one putting money in so give your SSN beside "grantor's TIN"
10 Reason for applying: you check "created a trust" and beside 'speficy type' I am entering 'foreign grantor trust'
also in the signature area, it wants 'name and title' and someone aptly suggested your title is "Grantor/Owner" - that's what I'm using.

CdnAmerican · Post by **CdnAmerican** » Sat May 16, 2015 1:26 am

Just a note before paying hundreds of dollars for an EIN .. I had to do this a few years ago; it was about a 10-minute call to the IRS to solve it. Definitely something that can be done oneself to save some money.

Also, on #3 (Executor) above, I've put myself as that person. If any documents get sent to the bank, they will likely not be able to respond. As such, I assume that any concerns would be sent directly from the IRS to me. I'm not sure if this is right, but I have done it for several years without reprimand.

Good luck!