Double trouble.. US citizens in Canada
Moderator: Mark T Serbinski CA CPA
From what i understood at the time i became a Canadian ...it was not Canada that didn't allow dual citizens it was the U.S. that did not..so if you became a citizen of another country you lost your U.S. citizenship.. but to your question i have not been able to find out if it is true either. for that reason i always thought that i had lost it after i became a Canadian...it was 40 years ago and i have lived my life here in Canada with that belief.. as a side note maybe 15 or 16 years ago i was once stopped at the U.S. border and asked if i wanted to get back my U.S. citizenship by a border guard and he gave me some forms to fill out if i was interested (that just reinforced my belief)... i did not want my citizenship back so never did anything about it thank God!.... we are proceeding as if I AM CANADIAN. my wife is going to fill 3 years taxes and FBAR...
You are still a US citizen. The way it works is that the US does not recognize dual citizenship, but Canada does. It's a distinction without a whole lot of meaning. But from a technical standpoint, the US does not recognize dual citizenship. If you have US citizenship, then that is all you have. From the US point of view, you can go ahead and get other citizenships around the world - but they won't recognize them. For them, you are still a US citizen and that is all.
You have to go through a formal process of renunciation and take an oath in front of a diplomatic officer at a US embassy or consulate. If you haven't done that, then you still have your US citizenship in the eyes of the USA.
As for border guards, they are honestly just as clueless as the IRS phone service agents. They have no idea what the laws are regarding citizenship. Most of the time they don't even have a clue what the laws are regarding entry into the country.
I've been crossing the border regularly (I'm a dual US/Cdn citizen) for decades now, and you wouldn't believe how many different explanations I've heard from the border guards through the years. All completely contradictory to what the previous border guard had told me on my previous trip. It's a joke. Unfortunately, they have the power to stop and detain you, so you just play along with whatever it is they are trying to tell you.
(Oddly though, the Canadian borders guards seem to be much more knowledgeable and on the same page with each other. i have to assume the training in Canada is far superior to what the guards in the US receive. Although they also tend to be more laid back and far less confrontational on the whole than their US counterparts. Just an observation.)
You have to go through a formal process of renunciation and take an oath in front of a diplomatic officer at a US embassy or consulate. If you haven't done that, then you still have your US citizenship in the eyes of the USA.
As for border guards, they are honestly just as clueless as the IRS phone service agents. They have no idea what the laws are regarding citizenship. Most of the time they don't even have a clue what the laws are regarding entry into the country.
I've been crossing the border regularly (I'm a dual US/Cdn citizen) for decades now, and you wouldn't believe how many different explanations I've heard from the border guards through the years. All completely contradictory to what the previous border guard had told me on my previous trip. It's a joke. Unfortunately, they have the power to stop and detain you, so you just play along with whatever it is they are trying to tell you.
(Oddly though, the Canadian borders guards seem to be much more knowledgeable and on the same page with each other. i have to assume the training in Canada is far superior to what the guards in the US receive. Although they also tend to be more laid back and far less confrontational on the whole than their US counterparts. Just an observation.)
oldgringo may have thought that US had the same rules as canada at the time he became Cdn citizen.
Until 1977, Cdn citizens who took up another citizenship thru naturalization would lose their Cdn citizenship.
While US tried to have such a law, it was consistently struck down in Supreme court, so that, in effect, no natural born US citzizen can lose it without formally renouncing it.
Until 1977, Cdn citizens who took up another citizenship thru naturalization would lose their Cdn citizenship.
While US tried to have such a law, it was consistently struck down in Supreme court, so that, in effect, no natural born US citzizen can lose it without formally renouncing it.
After 20 years, I am severely cutting back on responses. Do not ask specifically for my help. There are a few others on this board that can answer most questions. All the best
oldgringo, I tend to want to embrace your theory, but I'm still not sure. There's lots of confusing data on the internet for sure.
Myself, I've lived in Canada for almost 60 years, born in 1951 to Canadian parents in the Canadian military who happen to be stationed in the U.S. for a few years when I was born (accidental citizen). I only remained in the U.S. for 10 months before returning to Canada in 1952 when my parents came home and applied for a Canadian Certificate of Birth Abroad and I've been here as a Canadian citizen paying all my taxes ever since. In 1974 I applied for and received my Canadian Citizenship certificate as it was a requirement to work for the Canadian government as the Certificate of Birth Abroad wasn't considered sufficient. Could I be any more Canadian?
I am able to come up with a weak case to say that I have lost my U.S. citizenship along the lines of your argument, but I doubt it's valid.
If I quote the following web site below:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_t ... _1753.html
In part:
A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship.
However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause.
Well, my parents did apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, and by free choice, and the intention to give up U.S. citizenship was certainly there as it doesn't appear as if dual citizenship was allowed in Canada in 1952. I just don't know if U.S recognizes this fact.
The registered birth abroad status appears to give Canadian citizenship as long as one remains in Canada or one files a Declaration of Retention between the 21st and 24th birthday. I applied for a Canadian Citizenship certificate in 1974 at 23 as it was required to work for the Canadian government.
The details of Canadian citizenship before 1977 are shown in the web site below.
http://www.americanlaw.com/cdncitabrd.html
In part:
Persons Born After December 31, 1946 but Before February 15, 1977
Section 5(1)(b) of the Former Act provided that a person born outside Canada other than on a Canadian ship could be considered a Canadian citizen if:
1.His father, or in the case of a child born out of wedlock, his mother, was a Canadian citizen at the time of the person's birth; and
2. The birth was registered, in accordance with the regulations, within two years after its occurrence or within such extended period as the Minister may, under the regulations, authorize in special cases
Retention Requirements for Applicants Born Between January 1, 1947 and February 14, 1977
According to Section 5(2) of the Former Act, a person born abroad between January 1, 1947 and February 14, 1977, who acquired Canadian citizenship pursuant to Section 5(1)(b) of the Former Act by registering his or her birth abroad, would cease to be a Canadian citizen the day after his or her 24th birthday unless he or she:
1. Had a place of domicile in Canada on that date; or
2. Filed a Declaration of Retention between the 21st and 24th birthday.
I'm certainly not able to verify anything concrete online, so maybe Canadian Immigration and Citizenship might be able to help. I'm hesitent because it may be like phoning CRA and getting three different answers when you ask the same question. :roll:
oldgringo, are you going to attempt to do any more verification of your own status?
Are you having a CPA do your wifes taxes or is it a tax preparer?
Myself, I've lived in Canada for almost 60 years, born in 1951 to Canadian parents in the Canadian military who happen to be stationed in the U.S. for a few years when I was born (accidental citizen). I only remained in the U.S. for 10 months before returning to Canada in 1952 when my parents came home and applied for a Canadian Certificate of Birth Abroad and I've been here as a Canadian citizen paying all my taxes ever since. In 1974 I applied for and received my Canadian Citizenship certificate as it was a requirement to work for the Canadian government as the Certificate of Birth Abroad wasn't considered sufficient. Could I be any more Canadian?
I am able to come up with a weak case to say that I have lost my U.S. citizenship along the lines of your argument, but I doubt it's valid.
If I quote the following web site below:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_t ... _1753.html
In part:
A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship.
However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.
Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause.
Well, my parents did apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, and by free choice, and the intention to give up U.S. citizenship was certainly there as it doesn't appear as if dual citizenship was allowed in Canada in 1952. I just don't know if U.S recognizes this fact.
The registered birth abroad status appears to give Canadian citizenship as long as one remains in Canada or one files a Declaration of Retention between the 21st and 24th birthday. I applied for a Canadian Citizenship certificate in 1974 at 23 as it was required to work for the Canadian government.
The details of Canadian citizenship before 1977 are shown in the web site below.
http://www.americanlaw.com/cdncitabrd.html
In part:
Persons Born After December 31, 1946 but Before February 15, 1977
Section 5(1)(b) of the Former Act provided that a person born outside Canada other than on a Canadian ship could be considered a Canadian citizen if:
1.His father, or in the case of a child born out of wedlock, his mother, was a Canadian citizen at the time of the person's birth; and
2. The birth was registered, in accordance with the regulations, within two years after its occurrence or within such extended period as the Minister may, under the regulations, authorize in special cases
Retention Requirements for Applicants Born Between January 1, 1947 and February 14, 1977
According to Section 5(2) of the Former Act, a person born abroad between January 1, 1947 and February 14, 1977, who acquired Canadian citizenship pursuant to Section 5(1)(b) of the Former Act by registering his or her birth abroad, would cease to be a Canadian citizen the day after his or her 24th birthday unless he or she:
1. Had a place of domicile in Canada on that date; or
2. Filed a Declaration of Retention between the 21st and 24th birthday.
I'm certainly not able to verify anything concrete online, so maybe Canadian Immigration and Citizenship might be able to help. I'm hesitent because it may be like phoning CRA and getting three different answers when you ask the same question. :roll:
oldgringo, are you going to attempt to do any more verification of your own status?
Are you having a CPA do your wifes taxes or is it a tax preparer?
hi Alphie
well needless to say the last few posts have turned our world upside down again!..it is double trouble as i said when i started this thread...to answer your question we are using a tax preparer here in Canada who is a us citizen.... and I'm really not sure what I'm going to do now...
i would like to keep in touch with you in not such a public way...but they don't allow private messages here...
oldgringo
well needless to say the last few posts have turned our world upside down again!..it is double trouble as i said when i started this thread...to answer your question we are using a tax preparer here in Canada who is a us citizen.... and I'm really not sure what I'm going to do now...
i would like to keep in touch with you in not such a public way...but they don't allow private messages here...
oldgringo
to sum up alphie:
US has never nbeen able to successfully cancel US citizenship unilaterally except for cases of treason.
canada had a law which DID remove Cdn citizenship untl 1977.
which is pretty much what I said in the post before.
oldgringo, your need to file a few tax returns has been co-mingled with a couple of other posters who are on edge of tax evasion.
THEY should be worried.
YOU have nothing to worry about, just file 3 years of IRS returns, once you have ONE done, the rest will all take care of themselves.
US has never nbeen able to successfully cancel US citizenship unilaterally except for cases of treason.
canada had a law which DID remove Cdn citizenship untl 1977.
which is pretty much what I said in the post before.
oldgringo, your need to file a few tax returns has been co-mingled with a couple of other posters who are on edge of tax evasion.
THEY should be worried.
YOU have nothing to worry about, just file 3 years of IRS returns, once you have ONE done, the rest will all take care of themselves.
After 20 years, I am severely cutting back on responses. Do not ask specifically for my help. There are a few others on this board that can answer most questions. All the best