Hello I was wondering if somebody could help me figure out when my departure date is for tax purpose.
My husband is a European who was working in Canada for a couple of years. His work visa finished in Jul 2012 . He left Canada in Aug 2012 for his new job in US. I left Canada in Oct 2012 to visit him in US as his gf and also traveled around. In Mar 2013 we got married in US and drove to the border to get me the H4 spouse visa. I am Canadian citizen and he is not. He filed his exit tax return to CRA for 2012 as single, to IRS as a single non resident, and we filed 2013 tax return to US jointly. I still have RRSP, Canadian bank accounts, Canadian drivers license, and OHIP card, but never used my health card after leaving Canada in 2012. I don’t have any family member living in Canada and neither have I ever owned any real estate in Canada. My apartment rental was finished the time I left Canada.
I’m about to file my 2012 or even 2013 tax return to CRA. After reading CRAs website I’m getting confused about whats considered my departure date for 2012/2013 tax purpose.
When leaving Canada in 2012 I was obviously a tourist to US. Even during traveling I was still applying for jobs in Canada online. Because I wasn’t married to my bf yet, he filed his 2012 exit return to CRA and IRS both as single. After I left in 2012, the only time I returned to Canada was when we drove to the border to change my status to H4 spouse visa, and when I went to Toronto to catch a flight in summer 2013. Each time it was just a few hours on Canada side.
1. Is my departure date for Canadian tax purpose Oct 2012? We didn’t get married till Mar 2013. I would have returned to Canada to live in 2013 if he had not proposed at the time. So I suppose as a tourist to US my tie to Canada was stronger than to US for 2012?
2.If my departure date is considered to be in 2013, should it be the date we got married, or the date we went to the border to get H4? I suppose the date we got married is the day my ties to US is stronger than to Canada? Or the date I actually got the H4? Or I should just file 2012 return to CRA as a full year resident, 2013 as a non resident for the whole year, because I only stayed in Canada for in total less than 24 hours in 2013?
Thanks for your input.
DAeparture date from Canada?
Moderator: Mark T Serbinski CA CPA
Before you obtained the H4 visa, you had no right to live in the US. That would be the departure date to use in your tax return for Canada. Read the emigrants guide on the CRA site, as there considerations when exiting Canada's tax system.
You should be changing your drivers license to your US state. It is likely that OHIP now considers that you are no longer covered by them, regardless of whether you still hold the card.
You can file a US joint return without issues, for the whole year 2013, and even though you had not officially moved there yet, as this is the right by treaty of any Canadian. Be sure you file for 2013 any and all required reports such as FBAR, forms for your RRSP (any TSFA?).
You can keep your Canadian bank accounts if that is convenient. But if you have any brokerage accounts, you should move the assets to a US brokerage. Give your RRSP custodian your new address in the US. Get US health insurance (maybe family coverage via your husband, or your own employer). You need to use tax credits to avoid double taxation up to your departure date from Canada.
nelsona: any mis-statements there? What did I miss?
You should be changing your drivers license to your US state. It is likely that OHIP now considers that you are no longer covered by them, regardless of whether you still hold the card.
You can file a US joint return without issues, for the whole year 2013, and even though you had not officially moved there yet, as this is the right by treaty of any Canadian. Be sure you file for 2013 any and all required reports such as FBAR, forms for your RRSP (any TSFA?).
You can keep your Canadian bank accounts if that is convenient. But if you have any brokerage accounts, you should move the assets to a US brokerage. Give your RRSP custodian your new address in the US. Get US health insurance (maybe family coverage via your husband, or your own employer). You need to use tax credits to avoid double taxation up to your departure date from Canada.
nelsona: any mis-statements there? What did I miss?
Hi rlb,
I have both Canadian drivers license and US drivers license. And my husband and me already filed 2013 return jointly to IRS with 8891, 8938, 3520/3520a and FABR. I knew my OHIP card is no longer valid a long time ago. Just wonder if CRA would use all these to determine my ties to Canada for 2012 tax year.
My question is: since I have been in US physically since Oct 2012 and only less than 24 hours in Canada in 2013, is my departure date considered Oct 2012 , the day I left Canada for US as a tourist, or Mar 2013, the date I got married or obtained my H4?
My understanding is I can still file 2012 as a full year tax resident to Canada although the last 3 months I wasn't in Canada at all, because I wasn't married, so my ties were stronger to Canada than to US. For 2013 I could either choose to file an exit return with my h4 date as departure date, or file a non resident tax return because I satisfy the "deemed non resident" rule (lived pretty much outside of Canada for the whole year of 2013, only physically in Canada for in total less than 24 hours, and no significant tie to Canada).
If I use H4 date as departure date, would my husband need to file return for 2013 as well since I'm still resident for Canada tax purpose for part of 2013 (even if physically I was in US)? He already filed exit return in 2012 as single. Or I suppose he is a deemed non resident for Canada for 2013 no matter what date I choose to be my departure date?
Thanks.
I have both Canadian drivers license and US drivers license. And my husband and me already filed 2013 return jointly to IRS with 8891, 8938, 3520/3520a and FABR. I knew my OHIP card is no longer valid a long time ago. Just wonder if CRA would use all these to determine my ties to Canada for 2012 tax year.
My question is: since I have been in US physically since Oct 2012 and only less than 24 hours in Canada in 2013, is my departure date considered Oct 2012 , the day I left Canada for US as a tourist, or Mar 2013, the date I got married or obtained my H4?
My understanding is I can still file 2012 as a full year tax resident to Canada although the last 3 months I wasn't in Canada at all, because I wasn't married, so my ties were stronger to Canada than to US. For 2013 I could either choose to file an exit return with my h4 date as departure date, or file a non resident tax return because I satisfy the "deemed non resident" rule (lived pretty much outside of Canada for the whole year of 2013, only physically in Canada for in total less than 24 hours, and no significant tie to Canada).
If I use H4 date as departure date, would my husband need to file return for 2013 as well since I'm still resident for Canada tax purpose for part of 2013 (even if physically I was in US)? He already filed exit return in 2012 as single. Or I suppose he is a deemed non resident for Canada for 2013 no matter what date I choose to be my departure date?
Thanks.
I am not sure what part of what I said was unclear. You were not a US resident in 2012, just a visitor. And you certainly do not want to be a resident, because you would then be in severe difficulties because you did not file FBAR, 8891, 3520 etc. for 2012. There may be slight flexibility in choosing between the date you got married and the date you were given the H4, assuming you were determined to obtain the H4 at the time of your marrying. However, the date of the H4 is the natural date to use, as it is the date you were first entitled to reside in the US. And you have no compelling reason to argue for a different date, have you? Certainly Canada is not going to want you to use a date in 2012, you did not file a departure for that year anyway.
Why would your husband need to file for 2013? He left Canada in 2012 and gave a departure date. Canada does not permit joint filing, so whether he was married to you in 2013 means nothing to Canada (except for one small matter: you'l need to specify his income on your 2013 return to allow the CRA to determine your family income for the purpose of certain social benefits). He is not a "deemed non resident", he ** is ** a non resident.
Why would your husband need to file for 2013? He left Canada in 2012 and gave a departure date. Canada does not permit joint filing, so whether he was married to you in 2013 means nothing to Canada (except for one small matter: you'l need to specify his income on your 2013 return to allow the CRA to determine your family income for the purpose of certain social benefits). He is not a "deemed non resident", he ** is ** a non resident.
rlb, you might have bit off more thna you can chew, although I admire your effort.
Even tourists, if they stay sufficient tim in US, can be considered US tax residents. It is even something that snowbirds have to be careful of.
So, since little time was spent in canada when getting the H4, her Cdn residency , or its end, really doesn't have much to do with that.
So echo, what TIES did you have in Canada when you left. Did you keep an appartment? If not, then your departure date was Oct 2012. You need to file a departure retunr for 2012, and nothing for 2013.
Byut, just so we are clear, marriage in itself, even if you lived full-time in Canada, would not necessarily make him a Cdn resident. He left in 2012, and would have no reason to file as a resident thereafter unless he moved back.
He became a NON-resident in Jul 2012. do not use "deemed" in any of this discussion, as rlb said, since that has specific meaning.
Even tourists, if they stay sufficient tim in US, can be considered US tax residents. It is even something that snowbirds have to be careful of.
So, since little time was spent in canada when getting the H4, her Cdn residency , or its end, really doesn't have much to do with that.
So echo, what TIES did you have in Canada when you left. Did you keep an appartment? If not, then your departure date was Oct 2012. You need to file a departure retunr for 2012, and nothing for 2013.
Byut, just so we are clear, marriage in itself, even if you lived full-time in Canada, would not necessarily make him a Cdn resident. He left in 2012, and would have no reason to file as a resident thereafter unless he moved back.
He became a NON-resident in Jul 2012. do not use "deemed" in any of this discussion, as rlb said, since that has specific meaning.
nelsona non grata. Non pro. Please Search previous posts, no situation is unique as you might think. Happy Browsing 
Thanks for stepping in, nelsona, I hpoed you would. "rlb, you might have bit off more than you can chew, although I admire your effort." You're absolutely right. And it's a bit like duplicate bridge - when you make a bid, you need to think of your partner's possible responses, if any, and be able to handle them. I should be cautious about answering a question, because I may not be up to the follow-up!
Hi rlb and nelsona, thanks for your help.
To answer your question nelsona, I didn't keep any apartment when I left in 2012. I brought two suitcases with me and some boxes are still at my friends' places waiting to be picked up by me in Canada. My only ties to Canada in 2012 when I left was the bank accounts, RRSP, drivers license, OHIP card etc. I suppose this means my departure date is 2012, not 2013? I was also looking for jobs in Canada when I was in US as a tourist. I guess these are not considered significant ties to Canada.
I don't satisfy IRS's significant presence test for 2012 and have no source of income from US side in 2012. If my departure date is considered in 2012, does this mean I have to file return to IRS for 2012 as a non resident? Does non resident need to file FABR, 8938, 8891, 3520/3520a?
The good news is I know at least my husband doesn't need to file 2013 to CRA. Thanks for pointing that out!!
To answer your question nelsona, I didn't keep any apartment when I left in 2012. I brought two suitcases with me and some boxes are still at my friends' places waiting to be picked up by me in Canada. My only ties to Canada in 2012 when I left was the bank accounts, RRSP, drivers license, OHIP card etc. I suppose this means my departure date is 2012, not 2013? I was also looking for jobs in Canada when I was in US as a tourist. I guess these are not considered significant ties to Canada.
I don't satisfy IRS's significant presence test for 2012 and have no source of income from US side in 2012. If my departure date is considered in 2012, does this mean I have to file return to IRS for 2012 as a non resident? Does non resident need to file FABR, 8938, 8891, 3520/3520a?
The good news is I know at least my husband doesn't need to file 2013 to CRA. Thanks for pointing that out!!
How you file in US doesn't necessarily coincide with your Cdn tax status, nor does it have to.
For 2012, since you did not meet SPT, and di not have any US incoem, you ahve nothing to file.
For 2013, since you will be filing jointly with spouse, and obvioulsly meet SPT, you will be filing like every other US taxpayer who has all these foreign accounts, You don't nneed 3520 if you have no RESP or TFSA.
For 2012, since you did not meet SPT, and di not have any US incoem, you ahve nothing to file.
For 2013, since you will be filing jointly with spouse, and obvioulsly meet SPT, you will be filing like every other US taxpayer who has all these foreign accounts, You don't nneed 3520 if you have no RESP or TFSA.
nelsona non grata. Non pro. Please Search previous posts, no situation is unique as you might think. Happy Browsing
Hi Nelsona, again thanks for your reply. I really appreciate your help. Just want to make sure I understand your point:
My departure date is 2012 when I left Canada. So I will file exit return to CRA for 2012. I don't need to file 2012 to IRS as a non resident since I don't have any income from US side in 2012. But do I need to file any of the forms of 8938, 8891, FABR, 3520/3520a as non resident for 2012, because my Canadian assets did meet the reporting threshold and I did have RRSP, TFSA in 2012?
For 2013 my husband and me have filed joint return to IRS by the deadline of Apr 15 with all the forms required (8938/8891/3520etc). I have very little income for 2012 and only interest income in 2013 from Canada. That's why I haven't filed 2012/2013 to CRA yet.
Thanks!
My departure date is 2012 when I left Canada. So I will file exit return to CRA for 2012. I don't need to file 2012 to IRS as a non resident since I don't have any income from US side in 2012. But do I need to file any of the forms of 8938, 8891, FABR, 3520/3520a as non resident for 2012, because my Canadian assets did meet the reporting threshold and I did have RRSP, TFSA in 2012?
For 2013 my husband and me have filed joint return to IRS by the deadline of Apr 15 with all the forms required (8938/8891/3520etc). I have very little income for 2012 and only interest income in 2013 from Canada. That's why I haven't filed 2012/2013 to CRA yet.
Thanks!
rlb, you are just confusing things. She didn't ask about RRSP. I'm not about to go over every single form that she needs to file.
You will liukley find it useful -- and I KNOW I will -- if you are going to take on the task of answering questions, to simply answer the quesions, and not ask other ones.
You will liukley find it useful -- and I KNOW I will -- if you are going to take on the task of answering questions, to simply answer the quesions, and not ask other ones.
nelsona non grata. Non pro. Please Search previous posts, no situation is unique as you might think. Happy Browsing
Hi Nelsona and rlb, sorry for the confusion.
Yes I had and still have RRSP and TFSA. I have had these accounts for years. I never closed these accounts after I left in 2012, because I was thinking about returning to Canada to work after visiting him and travelling around in US. He proposed so I stayed. And that not only changed my life, but also my tax filing now I realize:)
My husband and me filed all those forms (8938, 8891 etc) for 2013 return because I knew for 2013 tax year I'm resident alien and I need to file those forms. I just wasn't sure, for 2012 do I still need to file these forms? I might be exempt from filing as non resident to IRS for 2012 because I had no income from US side, but my Canadian assets met the reporting threshold for 2012, also I have always had RRSP and TFSA.
Yes I had and still have RRSP and TFSA. I have had these accounts for years. I never closed these accounts after I left in 2012, because I was thinking about returning to Canada to work after visiting him and travelling around in US. He proposed so I stayed. And that not only changed my life, but also my tax filing now I realize:)
My husband and me filed all those forms (8938, 8891 etc) for 2013 return because I knew for 2013 tax year I'm resident alien and I need to file those forms. I just wasn't sure, for 2012 do I still need to file these forms? I might be exempt from filing as non resident to IRS for 2012 because I had no income from US side, but my Canadian assets met the reporting threshold for 2012, also I have always had RRSP and TFSA.